Mastery of the Psychology of Change & Transformation

Guest: Meg Pogue, Founder, Mission Squared
Host: Alex Rawlings

Meg Pogue joins Alex to discuss the psychology behind change in private equity-backed businesses. A former CEO who scaled her company from 2 to 95 employees, Meg now works with executive teams to navigate transformation, cultural friction, and the human dynamics of growth and acquisitions.

The conversation explores why acquisitions and major transformations often trigger fear and resistance inside organizations. While executives are typically excited by growth and opportunity, most employees prioritize stability and social connection, both of which can feel threatened during periods of change.

Meg explains how the brain’s threat response can lead to defensive behaviours, disengagement, and poor decision-making. Leaders often misinterpret this as resistance or negativity, when in reality it’s a natural psychological reaction to uncertainty.

She shares practical leadership tactics for managing change effectively, including rebuilding trust through authenticity and vulnerability, empowering employees with a sense of control, and communicating the “why” behind transformation.

Meg also introduces simple tools leaders can use during times of change, such as the “1–10 engagement question” and asking employees directly “How can I support you better right now?” — both designed to surface concerns quickly and maintain momentum during transformation.

🕒 Timestamps

00:00 – Introduction to Meg Pogue
00:28 – Meg’s CEO journey and leadership lessons
01:54 – Fear and perception around private equity acquisitions
03:23 – Leadership personality differences during change
05:14 – Why employees feel threatened by transformation
06:44 – Communication and leadership during change
10:59 – Rebuilding trust within teams
13:25 – Empowerment and giving employees control
14:51 – Leading change in fast-paced PE environments
18:40 – Questions leaders should ask their teams
19:07 – The “1–10 engagement” leadership tool
21:30 – Raising standards without creating resistance
24:51 – Leadership book recommendations
26:17 – Meg’s book: The Adversity Hack
27:39 – How to connect with Meg

Key Takeaways

Change triggers threat responses
Most employees prioritize stability and connection, making acquisitions feel risky.

Executives often underestimate psychology
High-drive leaders assume others share their excitement for transformation.

Trust accelerates change
Authenticity and vulnerability help rebuild trust quickly.

Empowerment reduces resistance
Giving employees voice and autonomy improves engagement.

Clear communication matters
Explaining the “why” behind change helps teams align faster.

Raw Selection partners with Private Equity firms and their portfolio companies to secure exceptional executive talent. We focus on de-risking executive recruitment through meticulous search and selection processes, ensuring top-tier performance and long-term success.

🔗 Connect with Alex Rawlings on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexrawlings/
🌐 Visit Raw Selection www.raw-selection.com

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for proven strategies, templates, and best practices to make smarter hires. 

Transcript

00:00
Welcome back to the Royal Selection Private Equity Podcast. Joining us today is Meg Pogue, ex-CEO and now founder of a consulting firm supporting executives  around the mastery of psychology,  of change  and transformation.  The Private Equity  Playbook,  right there.  Let's dive in.  Meg, if you could share with us a brief insight into your place.

00:28
Yes, thanks. Thanks for having me here, Alex. My background is I was a CEO of a growing organization, grew it from two to 95 employees over about eight years. And I made every mistake that you can make on the people side of things. I think I was hard driving, visionary, loved the growth, loved the excitement. And as my coach said, I outrun, I outran my pump coverage. And so I started to become kind of obsessed with organizational psychology.

00:57
understanding human dysfunction.  And I realized I wanted to help other leaders with this. There's so much confusion and friction. So I started a small consulting firm to try to help executive teams and executives to navigate massive transition and fix human friction, cultural issues, toxicity, and dysfunction. So that's what I specialize in. I say, like to the fun in dysfunction. People are incredibly interesting.

01:25
And I think we don't understand enough of the impact of neuroscience, emotional intelligence, and psychology when it comes to high performing organizations  and um some of the natural responses that people have that are really detrimental to business and how to fix it. Well, there's nothing more than private equity than going through transformation and change and uh those that are driving it, those that are along for the ride  and going through it. So I think one of things I would say with regards to change that I see

01:54
poorly done and private equity would likely agree in a closed door setting with the acquisition integration work. So if we just think about that from an initial phase, so a lot of people in the business will either know that the company is up for sale or not.  Let's go from  founder owned low middle market type private equity approach. They've made this acquisition of this business, it's either an add on or it's the main platform, it doesn't matter. What's your take and your understanding of  how people feel?

02:24
If we begin and then we can begin to work through. Yeah. So, um, speaking both from my personal network, people I know who have gone through this transition of their company being acquired by private equity, but also my experience in helping clients to navigate this transition. Um, I think that there's a lot of fear out there around being acquired by anyone, but especially by private equity. People have a lot of myths and biases and some.

02:54
you know, fears that are grounded in truth, but you know, the saying perception is reality, Alex. So people have this preconceived notion that they're going to come in, they're going to make us corporate, they're going to cut the things we love, they're going to cut my best friend out of here, they're going to be hard driving, they're going to make this place miserable, we're going to lose our family feel.  There's a very strong bias out there and I think we need to anticipate that and admit it and proactively address it as we

03:23
navigate into these integrations. So as we understand that and different people, you mentioned just before we were live about the kind of disprofile and a lot of the executives tend to be high D and with that comes the drive, the ambition, the hey, change is good, let's go, et cetera. But obviously there's a lot of individuals that may be more high C and it's more process-driven, it's more understanding, it's more having to go with the knowledge and

03:53
What's the, what on is happening to this business that I joined X number of years ago? What do you know about the kind of difference of profiles, as I've just explained that in a very simplistic fashion and that kind of consideration, because I think as an executive, we kind of feel like others should be just like us and just, hey, this is good. Just let's just go. We're going to grow. We're going to move forward. But obviously that's not the case.

04:16
Right, and Alexis, I can speak from personal experience of making this mistake as I'm a very high D personality on the disc profile. It's that typical A type personality that loves fast pace, big change, has a big appetite for doing big things. That is, you know, 10 to 15 % of all people. We're not in the majority there, and we are also, we tend to be less aware.

04:44
and a little bit judgy of everyone else who's not like us. So um I fell right into that category. uh We did two acquisitions in my organization and um integrated them. And I grossly underestimated um how much strain would be put on my team,  real or imagined, by doing these acquisitions,  the change process. And I thought everyone was going to share my excitement. um

05:14
my vision,  and that is not what excites them. And in fact, most people feel immensely threatened by big change.  And this is, it comes down to the amygdala, that lizard brain or fear center in our brain.  Any change, even positive, is perceived as threat.  And  most people have a strong psychological need. Their primary need is for stability and social connection.

05:41
Those are the two things that are most disrupted by these types of business deals and big changes. so,  know, executives tend to be on the top of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. We're self-actualized. We're excited. We're doing purpose-driven work. We're going to change the world. And then most people are not up there at the top of the pyramid with us. They're down here focused on stability,  certainty, and social connection.

06:10
And that is completely disrupted by these deals. And I think  we walk in sometimes pretty blind to that.

06:18
Okay. So if most people's primary needs is stability and connection and a business wants to drive change, improvement, growth, and move forward, obviously we've got two conflicting elements. So what's your advice to executives that are trying to drive this change and need to, that kind of convinces those needing that stability and love of connection to come along for that ride? Well, I mean, the good...

06:44
The good news is you can create that stability and connection proactively and people can navigate through these kinds of changes very well  if the leadership is proactive about it and the leadership demonstrates resilience and calm and a level-headed approach, right?  And the leadership engages people in the change process and communicates proactively. People need to be seen. They need to understand that their concerns are being validated  and

07:14
considered by senior leaders.  People need to understand what's coming and the why behind it. And I think in these types of transitions, sometimes executives really under communicate and assume everyone's with them. em And I think that we underestimate the  backlash of that insecurity response. When people get insecure, they do really dysfunctional things.  And executives see the dysfunction, they see the resistance, and they translate in that

07:43
in their minds that people are too weak, too lazy, too afraid. That's not what's happening. um These are still their high performing team members that are having a threat response. And a threat response makes us do stupid things. We get all up in our egos. We go into self-preservation. We focus on everything all about me rather than looking at what's best for the company. So continual two-way conversation and

08:11
helping people understand the why and helping them to see what's in it for them and helping them to understand uh that they will have stability and connection and focus on that. Even just frontline leaders sitting down with their people and saying, how can I support you through this?  What's most important to you right now? What can I be doing better or differently to help you navigate this transition? That conversation alone goes a really long way.

08:39
I think just a little connection, communication and forecasting plans creates that psychological safety and stability. Okay. So you mentioned, and I can, I can liaise with this because that kind of frustration, I think part of it is, you know, leaders, founders, owners, CEOs, executives, whatever you want to put a title on it is we've been mulling and someone told me this, we'd been mulling things over for a little bit more time. I go, and we've been working it out and we know what's coming and we're prepared.

09:08
And we've kind of worked out how to navigate it before they've even come to fruition to them. So, yeah, I think a lot of these things do tend to come down to heavy communication. One of the things I've implemented just today is something called town halls, where I the, encourage people to ask questions and go, this is what we're trying to do, why are we trying to do this? And, one of the questions is why we create a framework around hiring people with first degrees. And that has to be part of our business makeup and going into.

09:38
into why we've done that with regards to the success that we've had outside of people on that frame and creating that avatar. So  for you thinking about how do executives, and you touched on it there a little bit, but how do we begin to think better? How do we begin to liaise more with the individuals that are not part of our makeup and our avatar, that are  the passengers in part of this process and only just processing it? What should we do?

10:06
Beyond, like, is there tools, is there techniques, is there things beyond, you know, the old adage of, guys, you just need to communicate more, you know, just have conversations. What actually  can be done here  to accelerate their understanding and their, you know, education around what's happening to get them back into, you know, to steal a Patrick Lancherney stuff, kind of forming norming, uh storming, forming storming, norming, performing. Right, right. And...

10:33
I'm glad that you're focused on just what's pragmatic and tactical because that's what we need.  These heavy psychological concepts are not super helpful in the moment. em And I have really promoted a lot of  specific tools and frameworks for  navigating these big changes. I think first and foremost,  I'm gonna go in two directions. The first direction is all about trust.

10:59
Research shows over and over that when people have a high level of trust with those they immediately work with and their boss, they can get through anything.  And most people don't understand the psychology of trust, how it's eroded, how it's rebuilt, and how it's sustained. And sometimes just the very act that um we're selling the company, we're doing this huge major change, that can erode trust. um

11:27
People will look at the executive team and say, I don't know if I trust them anymore because people lose trust when they don't understand something.  And so I think it's really important for leaders at all levels to understand how to rebuild and sustain trust. Trust is essentially that you are going to meet my expectations for you. So Alex,  if I'm your boss, do you think that I'm fully aware of everything you expect of me?

11:59
I can't be, right?  And  you may have been a high performing, you know,  really strong employee. And then the minute the change is introduced, you change. And I see the change as your boss. And I don't know what's happening because you have a whole different set of expectations of me now. You want more communication. You want a different kind of communication. You want a different kind of support. And I need to really tune in  and figure out how do I build, rebuild, and sustain trust with you.

12:27
The number one way to do that is for me to be powerfully authentic and vulnerable. To share with you as your boss, I'm nervous about some things too, right? There are some unknowns here, but we're in it together. I'm not gonna lie to you and say that everything is perfect. I'm not gonna lie and act like I'm having a great time, right? Vulnerability is the number one way to rebuild and sustain trust, to show that connection. Because trust isn't  earned, it is given.

12:57
And when I show you, I trust you, you trust me more. It's like the ultimate psychology hacker relationships. People don't give trust based on logic. They give it based on emotion. If they feel like you trust them, they trust you more. So if I'm vulnerable with you, Alex, as your boss, then you're going to go, oh, wow, Meg really trusts me. She's being vulnerable with me. She's opening up.  I can open up with her. I can trust her more. So.

13:25
I think that is one of the most powerful hacks. It's a big shortcut to stabilizing the connection dynamic. The second dynamic I always look at is empowerment. When people feel like they have no control over their environment, then they're gonna be going into that threat response, worry, angst multiple times a day. That releases adrenaline and cortisol and it actually makes you stupider. So the more stressed you are throughout the day,

13:53
the dumber, like your IQ literally drops. And so your ability to understand what's happening and navigate to those changes drops as well. So when people feel empowered and they're shown what they do have control over and they're asked for their input and they're involved in the planning and they're given tasks, they feel like they're in control and they get on board. They want to feel like they have autonomy.

14:21
and that they have agency and that they have voice. And the more you can give them that, the better. What do we say, or what would you say to the executives that go, Hey, you know, we're, in private equity here. Everything's fast paced. We've got to move. We've got to go. you know, chief exec, I'm nearly appointed. I've just walked into a new business. I'm taking it over. Communication is obviously going to be critical. We don't want to turn over the whole team. That's not part of the, uh, part of the outcome or part of the goal here, obviously, but.

14:51
They've got some pace to be running at. How do you tackle the question? Obviously the direct response would be, we'll make time, but how do you question the time around a I've got lots of priorities here. I've got an ERP implementation. We've got to find new acquisitions that we've got to go for. I've got debt covenant. I've got an outbreak. I'm going to hire a new chief financial officer. got new relationships with a private equity firm. How do you counter at their thing of, hey, I've not got a lot of time. Me sitting down with...

15:20
the management team, the junior management team, senior management team, and having these conversations and getting right into the feelings, we've got some work to do. Heidi's going to trigger in and let's get to it. Yeah. mean, so that is where I think my background as a CEO and my positioning is always going to be around the needs of the CEO and the executive team.  And we have to get those results. We have to stay at pace. And so I'm very realistic about that.

15:47
and empathetic as well. have been in that situation. I've lived it. And I will also tell you that it doesn't take that much time to rebuild trust. It doesn't take that much time to empower people. And if you do that, you will keep the momentum going behind you. If you don't do it, you're going to experience gravity and drag sucking you backwards because of other people's resistance.  So  I like to give people

16:14
little tools, little communication moments, connection moments that they can thread in throughout their day without having to hold a gazillion town halls, go meet with people one-on-one. You don't need to do that. People feel connected when they feel like you see them, you hear them, and you care about them, right? And you create opportunity for them to be involved in the planning of next steps and ensuring that we're successful. Ask them, what are the roadblocks that are gonna get in the way? Help us anticipate that.

16:43
What should we do about those things? Right? Engage them in that process. It doesn't take that much time. um And I've seen it happen over and over where a little bit of time investment from a CEO and the rest of the executive team goes a very long way.  does an executive know when,  you know, if we, we're going to get to the minutiae here a little bit with regards to individuals, but how does the executive know when they've,  if they've done this well enough and therefore if the

17:12
person is not for changing. We'd have a joke, think, of like being Margaret Thatcher, not for changing.  If that person was like, hey, look,  I'm off the bus, I'm not interested.  This has changed, I don't like it. And then not the person to be in. Because there's two points there. One, has the manager leader done the work they need to do in order to have this conversation? And secondly, how quickly, how slowly do they come to the conclusion that this person is not right?  Just keep this on a senior management side rather than...

17:42
whole business at this phrase, but em what's your, what's your take on that? So I think that we  as executives tend to be the least in touch with what's happening with the rest of the employees. So let's just, let's just call that out there. Right. em And so you need to work through your other leaders and give them very clear directives about how they are going to go back to their teams and those that they lead and make sure that

18:12
that all of their people feel connected to them and that they're gauging where people are at. So I have a few questions that I tell leaders to ask in times of change that I think the executive needs to tell all the other leaders to do.  Most of the actual  building of trust and empowerment is not gonna come from the CEO. We know that, right? It's gonna come from all the other leaders. So you gotta ask your leaders to ensure that they're keeping tabs on how people are doing.

18:40
that they're assessing risks of losing top talent um and that they have a good gauge on where people are at. So I have  two questions that I think all leaders should be asking on a regular basis through times of massive change.  One, I call the scale of one to 10 conversation. And this is a really quick way to assess where someone's at and what their needs are. So scale of one to 10 is,  you know, X team member.

19:07
I wanna ask you to give me a number of where you're at on a scale of one to 10.  One is I hate this job more than anything. I'd rather stick a fork in my eye than live another moment of this. 10 is I love this job so much, I would almost do it for free. I leap out of bed in the morning and I'm actually  given fulfillment and joy by my work here. Where are you at? They give you a number, six. Your follow-up question is what would make you a 10? Not a seven or an eight.

19:37
What would make you attend? What's the most important thing that would bring you up? And that person will spill out, here's what my primary need is right now. And that leader's job is to make sure that they create the opportunity, support, structure for that need to get met. So that is a really important hack to assess  where is this person at and what do they need from me as their leader? And I need to provide that in some way in their environment and opportunity.

20:05
um The second question that I would ask  is how can I support you better right now by doing more of something or something differently? And I say it with that level of specificity because when a leader says, hey, are you doing all right? Am I supporting you okay? The answer will always be, yeah, I'm all right. But when you ask specifically for what can I do better moreover differently, right? Then that person will say,

20:32
you know, I'm doing okay, but actually I would like a little bit more of X.  They're gonna underplay it because people are afraid to challenge, feedback or ask for more from their boss. But that's exactly what we need them to do right now. We need to gauge where they're at and what they need.  And it's usually something very simple. Like I'm afraid I'm gonna make a mistake on this project and the guys up here are gonna see it and they're gonna think that I'm incompetent and fire me. I know that we might be...

21:01
you know, paring through people right now. I don't want to be on the chopping block. I'm terrified of making a mistake. So will you double check ex emails and reports before I send them out? Yes, absolutely. Right. So it's usually something pretty tangible and simple. um Or can you just communicate with me a little bit more about what's coming? I feel a little blind. I want to know what's next month. You know, you've been a good job of telling me where we're going for the year, but I want to know two weeks from now and next month.

21:30
So those very tactical, simple requests are very transformative. Here's another one.  And it might link into what you said earlier, but you've obviously, with any private equity business, when it comes in, there's going to be mass transformation, mass change. uh One thing that every executive should always be looking to do, in my opinion, is to raise the standards within the organization and to continually do so just to stay ahead of competition,  but also to...

21:58
to wear pride with regards to their work and what they do.  What's the take from your perspective? Because that's usually the area that gets the most amount of pushback, the old quote of, we've always done it this way. And obviously there's frustration comes in. It's like, guys, OK, I'm just asking you to do something. What's your take on how that's approached better to influence change faster, to raise standards faster? So I want to start with what I have seen sometimes is the private equity firming

22:28
firm having a really different leadership philosophy or seeming to have a different leadership philosophy than that of the company or the employees experienced before. So em they come in and they want to change the whole philosophy  about how we're interacting, how things are done, the pace we're moving at, the level of sophistication of our processes. And people are naturally going to resist that. And it's not that they're resisting the vision and the goal. uh

22:58
It's  usually these things break down in the how, not the what or the why. It's how it's being done. And they may have a serious problem with the way that um this person is now talking to them or asking them how to spend their time. And so we need to start with the why, provide the context. Here's where we're coming from. We care about you.

23:22
We're doing everything for your success. We know that these changes are hard. Here's why we're doing them and what we're going to do to support you. Rather than just coming in hot and saying, redesign your SOPs and we're going to make you use this database now and learn this whole new technology. That's  really hard on people.  And so  they're going to start to buck against that. um And people don't realize it's a whole philosophical shift that they need to be brought along with. um

23:52
I also think we underestimate the psychology of being on a winning team. You can use this to your advantage. You can say, this is a huge opportunity for us. These new partners are gonna come in and help us really get more sophisticated and efficient so that we can do more important, bigger things. It's gonna be a little rough at the onset. Change is always hard, but there is a reason why we're doing this. It's a great opportunity and we're gonna be winning.

24:19
People love being on a winning team, all humans all the time, no matter what. No one wants to be on a sinking ship. Sometimes these big changes expose some of the things that were not going well. And people are terrified of judgment. Oh, it was my, I wrote that SOP and now this private equity guy is coming in and saying it's crap. Am I gonna get judged? Am I gonna get fired? And I thought my SOP was pretty good, you know? So it's how it's done. It's not so much what we're doing.

24:51
sense. So what do you read, watch, listen to, that you recommend that others should check out? Please Meg. Okay, I've got two books I would recommend that I think are under-recognized right now that I have seen be very transformative for my clients to understand these dynamics.  The first book I'd recommend is The 15 Principles of Conscious Leadership. Really helps us differentiate kind of above-the-line behaviors, below-the-line behaviors in you as a leader.

25:21
how and why you slip into them, how to avoid it. Just makes it very clear about how to be conscious and intentional when you're leading, especially through change. em That's the first one. The second one  is leadership and self-deception. Because I have seen people's egos get triggered all over the place in all the ways, right?  And they're just  living by these old beliefs and they're justifying

25:49
Self-betrayal, they're justifying dysfunctional behavior. And so this book actually really walks you through how are you fooling yourself and justifying your stupid dysfunctional behavior and how to step out of it. And then I understand you've also written your own book as well. So tell us, tell us about that and how we reach out to get it. I guess that should be on the list, Alex. So  my book, The Adversity Hack  is essentially a handbook.

26:17
and how to use a four step process to improve your emotional intelligence, your decision making and reduce your stress. So it's a four step process to better understand how your emotions might be knocking you sideways and how to  actually process that, release them, get a good head back on your shoulders using neuroscience  and think from a place of the long game  and generous assumptions. Usually when we're going through change, we think very short.

26:47
How can I protect myself right now and be okay rather than the long term? And that is the nature of most of the mistakes we make. Also, we tend to start seeing things with a negative bias. My book helps you to understand the ego, how the ego is making you see things negatively and focus on yourself and your own needs when that is not what's gonna be best for you in the long run. What's best in the long run is to assume we're all doing the best we can with what we've got.

27:14
and what is my vision for this, being better, and what is my role here? What kind of leader do I need to be to drive success? How do I want to show up in a way that makes me proud five years from now? So my book is just a step-by-step process, a tool that if you use it, guaranteed to improve your self-management, your decision-making, and also reduce your stress and improve your relationships.

27:39
If anybody wishes to reach out, post this podcast, how best do they get in touch, Just email. I'm a traditional girl in that way. So it's meg at missionsquared.com.  I've loved geek out and have these conversations as well. And I've got cool tools and little PDF one-pagers that I give to people all the time, empowerment frameworks,  conversation frameworks that are highly useful in these times of change.

28:08
Well, thank you very much for coming on to the Private Equity Podcast. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a lot of fun. And as always, thank you very much to all of our listeners for tuning in yet again to the Private Equity Podcast. Till the next time, keep smashing it.